View Full Version : TAC on Student Loans and Investing in Self
Never let he be misunderstood. Student loans are one of the best deals going. There is a warning though. That is, make sure what you're studying can carry your debt. For example, why borrow $50,000 to have a thousand dollar a month debt when you graduate for a job that won't pay you $800 a month (don't grill me on the math. Just making a point).
The rule is to treat the loans and college as a no lose situation, i.e., borrow, GRADUTE and get the job commensurate with the loans that were taken out.
I've done it twice and I would do it all over again if I had to.
I would like to add that contrary to popular misconception, some of the loans are actually federal loans that are adminstered by private entities that get a small fee.
Sooooooooooooo, ding bat, when you f*ck over the bank, you really f*cking over the Federal government itself. End result, they can simply shut you done.
In closing, returning to my main point, treat the loans as a long term investment in yourself. In this way, things should work out fine.
And so ends today's public service announcement.
Peace
TAC
liL Ray
12-27-2007, 01:15 PM
f dat...I need to go to Negril...
The Buddy Love Show
12-27-2007, 01:16 PM
f dat...I need to go to Negril...
bwahahahahahahahahaha
And 5 star at that - we got stress
dYsKo
12-27-2007, 01:18 PM
"Never let he be misunderstood."
"The rule is to treat the loans and college as a no lose situation, i.e., borrow, GRADUTE and get the job commensurate with the loans that were taken out."
I think you may need another loan or two!! :tongueout:
Just giving you shit!! :lol:
Never let he be misunderstood. Student loans are one of the best deals going. There is a warning though. That is, make sure what you're studying can carry your debt. For example, why borrow $50,000 to have a thousand dollar a month debt when you graduate for a job that won't pay you $800 a month (don't grill me on the math. Just making a point).
The rule is to treat the loans and college as a no lose situation, i.e., borrow, GRADUTE and get the job commensurate with the loans that were taken out.
I've done it twice and I would do it all over again if I had to.
I would like to add that contrary to popular misconception, some of the loans are actually federal loans that are adminstered by private entities that get a small fee.
Sooooooooooooo, ding bat, when you f*ck over the bank, you really f*cking over the Federal government itself. End result, they can simply shut you done.
In closing, returning to my main point, treat the loans as a long term investment in yourself. In this way, things should work out fine.
And so ends today's public service announcement.
Peace
TAC
co-sign that.
panklady
12-27-2007, 01:36 PM
Word. I work with grown-a** college learners who you'd think would know this madness...BUT NO...I get atleast 5 calls/month saying "where's my refund...my mortgage is due". WTF? Refunds are to go to educational expenses...
What do you look like at the end of your college career wearing hot haute couture, tripped out (taking trips & ish), rent/mortgage paid...with no money for the GOV'T.
One word: GARNISHMENT! That is, if ya get a job....
Common sense ain't common...
BrazenMuse
12-27-2007, 01:37 PM
It's true...being practical isn't one of the things that people leave out when they take out loans. They are usually young people who aren't thinking about the long haul. I was one of them in my undergrad years. Worked a while, started paying them back...years later, I ended up going to graduate school and had to play the game again. I don't like the debt, but teaching high school may well allow me to get some debt forgiven in Jersey...so we shall see. But it is a real bill and it really has to get paid. Along with everything else.
Everyone can make mistakes early on. One needn't go on making them.
Phyllis Hyman Cherry
12-27-2007, 01:39 PM
So the bottom line is i shouldnt take out a $60,000 loan to study Fine Arts at the new School?I see it everyday a friend has a MFA and is working at CVS.Loans have to be repaid she says at any cost,since she cant find a job as a curator or artist she has to do what she has to do.
DJ Loka
12-27-2007, 01:56 PM
I'd like to add an argument AGAINST COLLEGE if I may. There are many many reasons why college didnt work for me...BUT
This doen't mean that one shouldn't INVEST IN SELF. It means that not everyone is cut out for the path that's presented as the holy grail. Investing in self also means that no one knows whats good for you BUT YOU.
For me investing in self meant:
- trusting my simple instincts (that looks like fun, i'll try that)
- finding a job that made me happy (i started out as a locker room attendant in a gym...why did i love that? i made $600 EXTRA/week selling locks/socks and energy drinks in there, and then i convinced them to train me to teach classes)
- loving it to the point of obsession (when you are obsessed with your work, it isn't work...it's LOVE, i found a love that would never leave me in teaching)
- allowing myself to stay in it long enough to discover talents i didnt know i had
- paying other people/mentors to train me to be better at it
- giving up partying and practicing my craft instead
- not letting other peoples ridicule or disbelief dissuade me
("you're a personal trainer? what kind of life is that?")
- betting my own money on ME, and losing some and winning some
- interning, assisting, hanging around anyone i thought had what i needed to know to the point where they taught me just to get rid of me lololol
- sucking up my mistakes and not making them twice
- not giving in to people who can't wrap their mind around MY VISION OF MY LIFE
I marvel at the people who can work full-time, and go to school full time and pull great grades to justify their debt...I still wish I was able to handle it...BUT I couldn't handle it - Im lucky that I recognized it for myself early on before I got into debt too deep and it still took me 8 years to pay off the one year at NYU I completed.
There's a million ways to be educated and for those that can't fit onto that college box, they need to know that it isn't the end of the world. It's just a different world, that has the same enriching experiences, the same breadth of knowledge and the same hope for a future....and although outside the mainstream, it's as valid as any other way of life.
Sometimes investing in self means going your own way, no matter what anyone else says.
I took out a 10,000 dollar loan to pay for training in IT, back in 1993. I been making more money than anyone I know, since then. Before the loan , I was making 7 bucks an hour, and going nowhere. That was one hell of an investment. I've been re-investing, with more training, ever since.
So the bottom line is i shouldnt take out a $60,000 loan to study Fine Arts at the new School?I see it everyday a friend has a MFA and is working at CVS.Loans have to be repaid she says at any cost,since she cant find a job as a curator or artist she has to do what she has to do.
The key is to do career research ahead of time to know what jobs exist in your field of endeavor and where they're located. Slim pickings in your field means you'll have to work that much harder in school to distinguish yourself so you can take advantage. Also, merely obtaining a degree isn't always sufficient. There is a reason employers ask for your transcripts.
I'd like to add an argument AGAINST COLLEGE if I may. There are many many reasons why college didnt work for me...BUT
This doen't mean that one shouldn't INVEST IN SELF. It means that not everyone is cut out for the path that's presented as the holy grail. Investing in self also means that no one knows whats good for you BUT YOU.
For me investing in self meant:
- trusting my simple instincts (that looks like fun, i'll try that)
- finding a job that made me happy (i started out as a locker room attendant in a gym...why did i love that? i made $600 EXTRA/week selling locks/socks and energy drinks in there, and then i convinced them to train me to teach classes)
- loving it to the point of obsession (when you are obsessed with your work, it isn't work...it's LOVE, i found a love that would never leave me in teaching)
- allowing myself to stay in it long enough to discover talents i didnt know i had
- paying other people/mentors to train me to be better at it
- giving up partying and practicing my craft instead
- not letting other peoples ridicule or disbelief dissuade me
("you're a personal trainer? what kind of life is that?")
- betting my own money on ME, and losing some and winning some
- interning, assisting, hanging around anyone i thought had what i needed to know to the point where they taught me just to get rid of me lololol
- sucking up my mistakes and not making them twice
- not giving in to people who can't wrap their mind around MY VISION OF MY LIFE
I marvel at the people who can work full-time, and go to school full time and pull great grades to justify their debt...I still wish I was able to handle it...BUT I couldn't handle it - Im lucky that I recognized it for myself early on before I got into debt too deep and it still took me 8 years to pay off the one year at NYU I completed.
There's a million ways to be educated and for those that can't fit onto that college box, they need to know that it isn't the end of the world. It's just a different world, that has the same enriching experiences, the same breadth of knowledge and the same hope for a future....and although outside the mainstream, it's as valid as any other way of life.
Sometimes investing in self means going your own way, no matter what anyone else says.
Those are all good tips...and all things that can and should be employed in a college setting. I think the mistake people make is that they think merely attending college and getting a degree is the pathway to success. In the long run, I think attending college is better than not attending college. But to make your college experience as effective and useful as possible later in life, you have to employ all the self-investing tips you just described.
BrazenMuse
12-27-2007, 02:12 PM
I'd like to add an argument AGAINST COLLEGE if I may. There are many many reasons why college didnt work for me...BUT
This doen't mean that one shouldn't INVEST IN SELF. It means that not everyone is cut out for the path that's presented as the holy grail. Investing in self also means that no one knows whats good for you BUT YOU.
For me investing in self meant:
- trusting my simple instincts (that looks like fun, i'll try that)
- finding a job that made me happy (i started out as a locker room attendant in a gym...why did i love that? i made $600 EXTRA/week selling locks/socks and energy drinks in there, and then i convinced them to train me to teach classes)
- loving it to the point of obsession (when you are obsessed with your work, it isn't work...it's LOVE, i found a love that would never leave me in teaching)
- allowing myself to stay in it long enough to discover talents i didnt know i had
- paying other people/mentors to train me to be better at it
- giving up partying and practicing my craft instead
- not letting other peoples ridicule or disbelief dissuade me
("you're a personal trainer? what kind of life is that?")
- betting my own money on ME, and losing some and winning some
- interning, assisting, hanging around anyone i thought had what i needed to know to the point where they taught me just to get rid of me lololol
- sucking up my mistakes and not making them twice
- not giving in to people who can't wrap their mind around MY VISION OF MY LIFE
I marvel at the people who can work full-time, and go to school full time and pull great grades to justify their debt...I still wish I was able to handle it...BUT I couldn't handle it - Im lucky that I recognized it for myself early on before I got into debt too deep and it still took me 8 years to pay off the one year at NYU I completed.
There's a million ways to be educated and for those that can't fit onto that college box, they need to know that it isn't the end of the world. It's just a different world, that has the same enriching experiences, the same breadth of knowledge and the same hope for a future....and although outside the mainstream, it's as valid as any other way of life.
Sometimes investing in self means going your own way, no matter what anyone else says.
no argument on that. Not everyone needs to be in college at all. And in high school, there is a ridiculous focus on college. The problem is that we need to bring back the respect for vocational training in this country...and we don't bother...too stuck on college. Too many chiefs and not enough indians.
...And in high school, there is a ridiculous focus on college. ...too stuck on college...
this is almost as bad as edith
Armento
12-27-2007, 03:09 PM
So the bottom line is i shouldnt take out a $60,000 loan to study Fine Arts at the new School?I see it everyday a friend has a MFA and is working at CVS.Loans have to be repaid she says at any cost,since she cant find a job as a curator or artist she has to do what she has to do.
Ding bats study Art. The only reason to go to school for Art is if you want to be a librarian, art historian, museum curator. You want to be an artist? Start doodling.
p.s. Repaying student loans and any other debt. Always OVERPAY your min payments.
p.p.s. Brazen, we will always have enough Indians. Don't worry. USA is being dumbed down not smartened up.
Fletch
12-27-2007, 03:36 PM
no argument on that. Not everyone needs to be in college at all. And in high school, there is a ridiculous focus on college. The problem is that we need to bring back the respect for vocational training in this country...and we don't bother...too stuck on college. Too many chiefs and not enough indians.I used to come out against vocational schools because I thought there was a lot of racial steering towards them. Also, many of the vocational schools at the time I went (20-25 years ago) are now obsolete and need to either be shut down or updated with the changing technology.
Now, I don't attack vocational schools like I used to. I realize that back then, those schools taught trades that were the backbone of the economy. But as I said, changes need to be made that is up to speed with today's times.
Now, back to student loans!
p.s. Repaying student loans and any other debt. Always OVERPAY your min payments.
That's true if all you have is one type of student loan debt. But to the extent you have a mix of private loans and government loans (Stafford, Perkins, etc.), you should pay as much as you can over the minimum payment on the higher interest private loans first and pay only the minimum on the lower interest government loans (unless you can afford to make substantial overpayments on both).
DaveR
12-27-2007, 05:48 PM
That's true if all you have is one type of student loan debt. But to the extent you have a mix of private loans and government loans (Stafford, Perkins, etc.), you should pay as much as you can over the minimum payment on the higher interest private loans first and pay only the minimum on the lower interest government loans (unless you can afford to make substantial overpayments on both).
agree
Satin Doll
12-27-2007, 06:21 PM
hmmmm i see whatcha sayn HOWEVERRRRRRRR i know im not the only mofo who looked forward to refund checks from student loans while in college...and if im the only one then yall telln a tale!:rolleyes: givin advise is cool but lets keep it real.
Word. I work with grown-a** college learners who you'd think would know this madness...BUT NO...I get atleast 5 calls/month saying "where's my refund...my mortgage is due". WTF? Refunds are to go to educational expenses...
What do you look like at the end of your college career wearing hot haute couture, tripped out (taking trips & ish), rent/mortgage paid...with no money for the GOV'T.
One word: GARNISHMENT! That is, if ya get a job....
Common sense ain't common...
BrazenMuse
12-27-2007, 06:25 PM
this is almost as bad as edith
not everyone is cut out to go straight to college or to even go to college at all. They might be better served by going into what they are actually interested in, earlier on.
We act like there's something wrong with vocational training, but charter schools and specialty programs that target a certain career grouping have great success rates with students who would otherwise be disinterested and perhaps disruptive. Apprenticeship and hands on training would rein in a great deal of bad in-school behavior...
There may be a point after being in the real world for a while where folks may decide to go to college, but they might not need to go directly there from high school. Could be an immense waste of time, money and energy.
We are living in a reality where constant training and retraining are necessary, and students need the skills to survive in that reality.
Did your plumber need to get a BA? Does your electrician need one? But do they all need to be aiming at an MBA? Really?
Satin Doll
12-27-2007, 06:26 PM
none of us are thinking bout the long haul when we fresh outa high school. i know i wasnt. hell i just knew id better be in somebodies college and i didnt care where the money was coming from and my momma didnt have no money saved up for me to go....so willingly student loans was my only option....it wasnt till a graduated that i realized this bill will be with me like forever like a darn car note til its paid in full...never realized when we grown and out the house that youd have to be responsible for other bills in addition to paying back student loans. you learn this head on. nobody told me shit.:conf44:
It's true...being practical isn't one of the things that people leave out when they take out loans. They are usually young people who aren't thinking about the long haul. I was one of them in my undergrad years. Worked a while, started paying them back...years later, I ended up going to graduate school and had to play the game again. I don't like the debt, but teaching high school may well allow me to get some debt forgiven in Jersey...so we shall see. But it is a real bill and it really has to get paid. Along with everything else.
Everyone can make mistakes early on. One needed go on making them.
Satin Doll
12-27-2007, 06:36 PM
i think "overpaying your minimum payments" is easier said then done. it would be nice to be in a position to do so but sometimes once uncle sam done took they cut from your paycheck its still never enough to cover ALL monthly expenses. everyone position is different...we cant just dwell on student loans, what about them credit card folks who be at the colleges everyday convincing you to sign up for credit cards. now you got debt on top of debt and you now realize once youve graduated and done moved outa mommys crib you accumlated all this in your college years and gota pay back. :conf44:
Ding bats study Art. The only reason to go to school for Art is if you want to be a librarian, art historian, museum curator. You want to be an artist? Start doodling.
p.s. Repaying student loans and any other debt. Always OVERPAY your min payments.
p.p.s. Brazen, we will always have enough Indians. Don't worry. USA is being dumbed down not smartened up.
The Buddy Love Show
12-27-2007, 06:42 PM
theres always an excuse
and if those run out: Blame whitey
Satin Doll
12-27-2007, 06:45 PM
no excuses here its reality. and if isnt yours then cool. :tongueout: u 4get everyone's situation is different.
The Buddy Love Show
12-27-2007, 07:34 PM
when one is broke "monthly expenses" equate to food, rent, gas and electric and maybe a phone
This "minimum payment" bullshit means that somewhere along the way a person decided to live above their means aka borrowing
Now if that borrowing was for an education - cool
if that borrowing was for "other" it means that you were greedy
What ever happened to saying "no"? Did the credit card folk twist arms to take their card? Even if a person was too weak to resist that, did the companies also force you to use the card on purchases you couldnt afford? Credit card folk have the same power to "convince" you to take their card as a Yugo dealer has to "convince" you to buy one of their purple hoopties - in other words: NONE
Lets start with blaming self
Unles one accepts their own responsibility in their predicament they will NEVER get out of debt
DaveR
12-27-2007, 07:44 PM
A Point for all of DHP ... before looking at the graph below, please note (and this is no slight on anyone), just a fact ...
*** Too often, it's peeps with 1, 2, 3 degrees, and/or post grad educations all up on this board tellin' ya college ain't all that, and to "be creative" and make up ya own mind ... That's cause they smart enough to know that if you don't think college is important, that's mo money for them :icon_rofl:
Take the loans if you have to, and study your ass off ... A 3.0 to 4.0 in Fine Arts, even a degree in cookin' oatmeal will set you apart in this competitive world, in the year 2008! ... no matter what you choose to do ...
Keep (or get) yo ass in school, or that trade/certification/industry-recognized-stamp-of-achievement-approval ... the AVERAGE numbers never lie (no matter what Bill Gates did ... you ain't Bill Gates AND Harvard has a lifetime "return to Harvard" program, for entrepreneurial dropouts - ya won't read that here) :rofl:
http://www.strategicplan.uci.edu/images/mission/03_a.gif
A Point for all of DHP ... before looking at the graph below, please note (and this is no slight on anyone), just a fact ...
*** Too often, it's peeps with 1, 2, 3 degrees, and/or post grad educations all up on this board tellin' ya college ain't all that, and to "be creative" and make up ya own mind ... That's cause they smart enough to know that if you don't think college is important, that's mo money for them :icon_rofl:
Take the loans if you have to, and study your ass off ... A 3.0 to 4.0 in Fine Arts, even a degree in cookin' oatmeal will set you apart in this competitive world, in the year 2008! ... no matter what you choose to do ...
Keep (or get) yo ass in school, or that trade/certification/industry-recognized-stamp-of-achievement-approval ... the AVERAGE numbers never lie (no matter what Bill Gates did ... you ain't Bill Gates AND Harvard has a lifetime "return to Harvard" program, for entrepreneurial dropouts - ya won't read that here) :rofl:
http://www.strategicplan.uci.edu/images/mission/03_a.gif
thank you, education is the great equalizer
DaveR
12-27-2007, 08:02 PM
... and regarding that graph above
Unless you can dunk a basketball over Shaq (regularly), come up with the next Broadcast.com, or invent the net Wacky Wall Walker craze, then likely you fall into one of the darker blue areas below, of people in the world!
Props to the innovators, and the "legends" - I mean that seriously ... but all too often, when them innovators and legends that we all love to celebrate, experiences the effects of a market crash, or they pass (or someone in their family) what do we see?
Benefit Party for DJ XYZ ... come raise money for their hospital bills ... WHY? ... cause they was too cool to go the normalized route of education, and hence, ain't got no Short/Long Term Disability, Medical Insurance, or Life Insurance
Yeah that ain't cool to say, but it's true ... I swear if I see one more benefit party for a so-called Legend, I'm gonna ... well, I'm not gonna do anything, just :jpshakehead:
http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/upload/2007/06/normal
The Buddy Love Show
12-27-2007, 08:05 PM
... and regarding that graph above
Unless you can dunk a basketball over Shaq (regularly), come up with the next Broadcast.com, or invent the net Wacky Wall Walker craze, then likely you fall into one of the darker blue areas below, of people in the world!
Props to the innovators, and the "legends" - I mean that seriously ... but all too often, when them innovators and legends that we all love to celebrate, experiences the effects of a market crash, or they pass (or someone in their family) what do we see?
Benefit Party for DJ XYZ ... come raise money for their hospital bills ... WHY? ... cause they was too cool to go the normalized route of education, and hence, ain't got no Short/Long Term Disability, Medical Insurance, or Life Insurance
Yeah that ain't cool to say, but it's true ... I swear if I see one more benefit party for a so-called Legend, I'm gonna ... well, I'm not gonna do anything, just :jpshakehead:
http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/upload/2007/06/normal
I'll contribute to the benefit party for BIGFOOT
DaveR
12-27-2007, 08:16 PM
I'll contribute to the benefit party for BIGFOOT
Support!
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/files/Walkingwithbigfoot.gif
Fletch
12-27-2007, 08:18 PM
thank you, education is the great equalizer
Frederick Douglass knew this....even if it ment his massa killin' his ass! ("Give a nigga an inch, he'll take a mile"). But he still taught himself to read. So did plenty of Brothas and sistas before us, to advance!
Benazir Bhutto knew this....even when she knew that goin' to Harvard and Oxford would eventually mean her death. But she also knew that plenty of Muslim women would follow suit, and will eventually liberate themselves.
There is a reason that people have risked their lives for that E-word. But 'modern-day soul-brotha' is the only one talking this 'college don't mean shit' talk! And I'm getting tired of it!
Sorry for the rant. And thanks for the chart, Dave!
BrazenMuse
12-27-2007, 08:32 PM
All this makes perfect sense. But not everybody is ready to hear it straight out of high school. And a general "college prep" curriculum isn't for everyone either.
I still wish that we'd stop disrespecting the vocational option in our educational system.
Had a great many 2 yr college students who wish they'd been in a position to pay more attention in high school or that they'd had better high schools...some practical training would have helped. Also had a great many 4 yr students who were only there bc parents forced them, wasted money and time bc they weren't ready, took out loans that they have to pay and made bad decisions about majors...it's quite a mess, quite a tangle.
certainly, I'm not going to say that college is a BAD idea, not me with the extra alphabets behind my name...but I will say it ain't for everyone and we leave a bunch of folks on the side when we don't broaden the scope of high school to include serious career tracks. The schools with those tracks have better records in educating the kids who had behavior problems and academic problems in regular schools. When the kids see real world applications, they go after it with a vengeance. When it suits their interests, they understand why they need the chemistry, the physics, the algebra, the geometry. When kids see real world applications, many more of them become driven, become focused. Right now, the major option for kids who aren't interested in a general "college prep" trajectory and can't be seduced into being interested is dropping out. This helps who how?
DeesKo
12-27-2007, 08:36 PM
... and regarding that graph above
Unless you can dunk a basketball over Shaq (regularly), come up with the next Broadcast.com, or invent the net Wacky Wall Walker craze, then likely you fall into one of the darker blue areas below, of people in the world!
Props to the innovators, and the "legends" - I mean that seriously ... but all too often, when them innovators and legends that we all love to celebrate, experiences the effects of a market crash, or they pass (or someone in their family) what do we see?
Benefit Party for DJ XYZ ... come raise money for their hospital bills ... WHY? ... cause they was too cool to go the normalized route of education, and hence, ain't got no Short/Long Term Disability, Medical Insurance, or Life Insurance
Yeah that ain't cool to say, but it's true ... I swear if I see one more benefit party for a so-called Legend, I'm gonna ... well, I'm not gonna do anything, just :jpshakehead:
In all seriousness, this is exactly why I am working 18-20 hrs a day 7 days a week right now in this store. My ass ain't gettin' any younger, my family is gettin' bigger, and quite frankly I damn sure wasn't going to turn into Tiesto overnight so what would be the point for me continuing to chase a pipe dream of supporting my family on an internet record label and DJ'ing for $200 a night.
That shit was nice while it lasted, but it would have been hella selfish of me to insist on having my family scrape by just so I could keep trying to DJ at some club @ 3 in the morning.
Maybe one day DJ'ing will come back around for me, but quite frankly, I got better shit to do and better things to worry about than ending up being 50 with nothing to show for it but some good times.
Not exactly on line with this thread, but what you said about being able to dunk over Shaq just struck a nerve with me personally because as hard as it is to admit, I knew how to blend records and throw a party, but I didn't know how to do it well enough to support my family CORRECTLY on it. ASCAP medical insurance ain't cheap.
Peace
Armento
12-27-2007, 08:48 PM
Brazen, as easy as highschool is, kids should be even more thirsty for college.
BrazenMuse
12-27-2007, 09:19 PM
Brazen, as easy as highschool is, kids should be even more thirsty for college.
easy from whose perspective? from the kid coming from the home where there aren't any books? where the habits of reading and of problem solving aren't part of the air they breathe? from the home that is a homeless shelter? where mom & dad are at each other's throats? It isn't necessarily the school time that provides the only disincentive.
High school is easy if you're ready for it and if you are in a district where there are sufficient resources and where the faculty don't say things like "I NEVER use technology in my classroom, I've been doing what I do for 30+ years and I'm not changing...I want students to read BOOKS" which really translates as "Although I'm an educator, I refuse to meet students where they are. Although I know that they love screens, are the kids of the video age, and are likely to pay more attention to things that don't seem "old-fashioned," I want them to meet me in my reality, the one that is quickly receding. I don't care. I'm living in a past-time paradise."
Getting students interested and excited about something other than the latest TV show or electronic doo-dad takes a great deal of work. Giving students classes which include both the cultural literacy that they will need in order to survive and thrive plus things THEY see as valuable or interesting is a tricky business.
There's an ever increasing need for different kinds of literacy (auditory, visual, etc). There is also an ever increasing need to understand that we need those kids who develop a love for something to have an outlet for that love...
I don't have the answers...but I'm busy refining my list of questions every day.
I don't know that high school is easy. I'd argue that the thirst for college comes to some folks a bit later than others.
Brazen, I think your messaage is being lost in the chatter, but I see your point.
DaveR
12-27-2007, 10:25 PM
Brazen, I think your messaage is being lost in the chatter ...
Bigfoot chatter ? :biglaugha:
Phyllis Hyman Cherry
12-27-2007, 10:25 PM
I do to.Not everyone is meant to be an investment banker or a registered nurse or any of the trillions of things you can be with a college degree.Some people were meant to be electrians and Painters and Hvac technicians.Some people are skipping college now and getting certifications in computers and making alot of money doing that.Perhaps kids can learn about these options as well as college.
BrazenMuse
12-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Dave, TAC and PHC - I'm glad to be heard. These are things I'm wrestling with daily now and it's really quite a tangle...bigfoot notwithstanding.
:grinyes:
Phyllis Hyman Cherry
12-27-2007, 10:39 PM
Strange as it may seem Tac has inspired me to maybe go to a private institution.As i see worse case scenario Ill owe $20 something thousand when i get out.If i get a job making $50,000 its manageable.I just cant have a car for a couple of years hehe.But in Ny you really dont need one anyway.Cuny Sucks and takes to damn long.I want to go to school in quarters.Go for fifteen weeks off for three then back again!I aint got the time im old.
DaveR
12-27-2007, 10:44 PM
I do to.Not everyone is meant to be an investment banker or a registered nurse or any of the trillions of things you can be with a college degree.Some people were meant to be electrians and Painters and Hvac technicians.Some people are skipping college now and getting certifications in computers and making alot of money doing that.Perhaps kids can learn about these options as well as college.
I most definitely agree with all of this ...
* My overarching point is simply this -- (since you mentioned money, and my position is also one of long(er)-lasting stability) -- you seldom hear the VP of IT say "them Developers don't know shit" (b/c they know their shit, and get paid well) - but you frequently see Developers saying "that fucking VP of IT doesn't know shit" (and usually he/she doesn't know as much as they do) ...
People should choose whatever they want, but the rules of $ are pretty clear and known (absent of the unique cases of the millionaire HS dropout, or the unemployed PhD, that we all can defensively cite) ... b/c usually when you don't shoot for the top, your first thoughts about whomever you serve, or report to are "that MF doesn't know/do shit" ... why not be one of those MFers :)
If you shoot for 100 people at your party, you'll get 20 ... shoot for 1,000, you just might get 200.
... Personally I'm always disturbed (not like I lose sleep or anything) with anyone that advises fellow minorirites to shoot for anything less than the top*, in whatever chosen field they enter (Blue or White collar) - but that's just me
* The Top = Striving for or doing MORE than the norm (whether that be in the form of money, education, vocation and/or expended levels of effort (as nicely put by Deesko above))
Phyllis Hyman Cherry
12-27-2007, 10:50 PM
Well its true that the Vp's probably have degrees.How many times have we worked for someone who is retarded but is the boss because they have the credentials?I do agree with reaching for the stars and being the best that you can be.But Dave R some people are just not academic thinkers.They are smart but in a different way.An electrician is just as brillant at what he does as an astrophysicist is at what she does.Even a degree in liberal arts will give you an advantage in corporate america.
DaveR
12-27-2007, 10:52 PM
... But Dave R some people are just not academic thinkers ...
I think I said ALL areas ... even DJing and promoting (which is why I put the party analogy)
Fletch
12-27-2007, 10:53 PM
Strange as it may seem Tac has inspired me to maybe go to a private institution.As i see worse case scenario Ill owe $20 something thousand when i get out.If i get a job making $50,000 its manageable.I just cant have a car for a couple of years hehe.But in Ny you really dont need one anyway.Cuny Sucks and takes to damn long.I want to go to school in quarters.Go for fifteen weeks off for three then back again!I aint got the time im old.
I hope you would consider CUNY. But I can't tell you what to do!
I went Both CUNY and private. What's that dancehall song...."Life is what you make it" (ragamuffin, diddly-diddly-ragamuffin.....!).
Phyllis Hyman Cherry
12-27-2007, 11:01 PM
In Cuny you are just another number.Private institutions offer more of a small class environment.Only problem is i have already signed up for the classes so i think i have to do one semester there and transfer.Thankfully alot of private schools have articulation agreements with Cuny Schools.I did some research and found that i shouldnt nessecarily scoff at the prices of private education.There are often larger grants for schools in the private sector,where as cuny you only get so much per year.
djLesCole
12-27-2007, 11:44 PM
... Personally I'm always disturbed (not like I lose sleep or anything) with anyone that advises fellow minorirites to shoot for anything less than the top*, in whatever chosen field they enter (Blue or White collar) - but that's just me
* The Top = Striving for or doing MORE than the norm (whether that be in the form of money, education, vocation and/or expended levels of effort (as nicely put by Deesko above))
Preach!
I hate the fact that mediocre is so acceptable in our community.
As for getting a college degree, here's my 2 cents. I've been an IT recruiter for over a year now. My company deals with many Fortune 500/1000 companies. I can count on one hand how many job requirements I've seen that didn't require at least a BS/BA Degree. For some, it's a measurement of not only intelligence, but determination, commitment, resolve, etc.
**Note: I'm not saying that there aren't people w/ no Degree out there that can't do the job, I'm just sharing my observations for even having a chance at most of the nicely paying jobs.
easy from whose perspective? from the kid coming from the home where there aren't any books? where the habits of reading and of problem solving aren't part of the air they breathe? from the home that is a homeless shelter? where mom & dad are at each other's throats? It isn't necessarily the school time that provides the only disincentive.
High school is easy if you're ready for it and if you are in a district where there are sufficient resources and where the faculty don't say things like "I NEVER use technology in my classroom, I've been doing what I do for 30+ years and I'm not changing...I want students to read BOOKS" which really translates as "Although I'm an educator, I refuse to meet students where they are. Although I know that they love screens, are the kids of the video age, and are likely to pay more attention to things that don't seem "old-fashioned," I want them to meet me in my reality, the one that is quickly receding. I don't care. I'm living in a past-time paradise."
Getting students interested and excited about something other than the latest TV show or electronic doo-dad takes a great deal of work. Giving students classes which include both the cultural literacy that they will need in order to survive and thrive plus things THEY see as valuable or interesting is a tricky business.
There's an ever increasing need for different kinds of literacy (auditory, visual, etc). There is also an ever increasing need to understand that we need those kids who develop a love for something to have an outlet for that love...
I don't have the answers...but I'm busy refining my list of questions every day.
I don't know that high school is easy. I'd argue that the thirst for college comes to some folks a bit later than others.
please stop, your preaching low expectations is disturbing, insulting and offensive
DJ Loka
12-28-2007, 02:44 AM
please stop, your preaching low expectations is disturbing, insulting and offensive
she's hardly preaching low expectations. she's saying that high school leaves out a large contingent of people who can certainly be successful if they were shown other options equally as well as college.
college isnt the end all be all, you can be extremely successful without it, as with it. (i saw the graph and not everyone aspires to work for others - those people were left out, it's like the small business person isnt even on the radar at ALL now?) and working and prepping ones whole academic life to work for someone else isnt the only way to aspire in this world. it's one way of making a living....
finding ones own path may not involve college - but there are still plenty of ways to invest in self, that lead to prosperous and successful lives.
i dont think anyone in this thread said that a college education is BAD, but it isnt FOR everyone, and sometimes rather than try to fit a square peg in a round hole, it may serve someone better if they try to find where they DO fit...so their interests and talents are served.
it sounds like brazen works in the school system in some ways and maybe has first hand knowledge of trying to get kids interested in their futures...she may have a grip on a generalization, but it hardly comes across as her preaching lower expectations....
it came across to me that she's trying to include those who aren't a fit right out of the box for college, and that certainly doesnt mean one's settling for mediocre or less...it means everyone isnt supposed to be or do the same thing, the same way, and again, no one is saying college isnt an ASSET, of course it is! but it's not the only way, either.
to be successful you have to be super driven and motivated whether you have college or not, you have to stand out and be excellent with, or without it...you always have to go BEYOND the average to win at life, and that takes individuality AND brains, and creativity and training and skills and it can be done in a myriad of ways.....
ooof i'm rearrry tirrred now.....before i ramble more, i dont get how brazen was preaching low expectations.
anyway...carry on...
Fletch
12-28-2007, 06:34 AM
In Cuny you are just another number.Private institutions offer more of a small class environment.Only problem is i have already signed up for the classes so i think i have to do one semester there and transfer.Thankfully alot of private schools have articulation agreements with Cuny Schools.I did some research and found that i shouldnt nessecarily scoff at the prices of private education.There are often larger grants for schools in the private sector,where as cuny you only get so much per year.From someone who went both private (undergrad) and CUNY (grad), I'll list some tradeoffs......
CUNY pro.....
1) New and improved CUNY
2) much cheaper; tuition hikes need some approval (see SUNY)
3) more diverse, due to lower cost and city demographics,
4) Professors are slammin!
CUNY Con......
1) Stigma from past bad CUNY performances
2) Privates may have more resouces due to endowments
3) Govt cutbacks could mean problems
4) More "commuter school experience" than "college experience" (CE if you go to school away from home)
Private Pro....
1) Resources, mainly due to endowments (see Harvard)
2) Some schools within university are world renowned. See Newhouse (Syracuse), Kennedy School (Harvard)
3) Students are from around country (that's if you go NYU, Columbia, away from home).
Private Con....
1) A whole lot of money!
2) Tuition Day....."where's our money"! Can raise it anytime and any rate!
3) Lack of racial diversity; too many kids with no racial training at home, plus some schools have less than 5% 'of color' populations
4) Some professors resting on their laurels instead of continuing to bust their ass!
That's my take!
when one is broke "monthly expenses" equate to food, rent, gas and electric and maybe a phone
This "minimum payment" bullshit means that somewhere along the way a person decided to live above their means aka borrowing
Now if that borrowing was for an education - cool
if that borrowing was for "other" it means that you were greedy
What ever happened to saying "no"? Did the credit card folk twist arms to take their card? Even if a person was too weak to resist that, did the companies also force you to use the card on purchases you couldnt afford? Credit card folk have the same power to "convince" you to take their card as a Yugo dealer has to "convince" you to buy one of their purple hoopties - in other words: NONE
Lets start with blaming self
Unles one accepts their own responsibility in their predicament they will NEVER get out of debt
sage advice
In all seriousness, this is exactly why I am working 18-20 hrs a day 7 days a week right now in this store. My ass ain't gettin' any younger, my family is gettin' bigger, and quite frankly I damn sure wasn't going to turn into Tiesto overnight so what would be the point for me continuing to chase a pipe dream of supporting my family on an internet record label and DJ'ing for $200 a night.
That shit was nice while it lasted, but it would have been hella selfish of me to insist on having my family scrape by just so I could keep trying to DJ at some club @ 3 in the morning.
Maybe one day DJ'ing will come back around for me, but quite frankly, I got better shit to do and better things to worry about than ending up being 50 with nothing to show for it but some good times.
Not exactly on line with this thread, but what you said about being able to dunk over Shaq just struck a nerve with me personally because as hard as it is to admit, I knew how to blend records and throw a party, but I didn't know how to do it well enough to support my family CORRECTLY on it. ASCAP medical insurance ain't cheap.
Peace
I completely relate to this.
to be successful you have to be super driven and motivated whether you have college or not, you have to stand out and be excellent with, or without it...you always have to go BEYOND the average to win at life, and that takes individuality AND brains, and creativity and training and skills and it can be done in a myriad of ways.....
That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.
Chris Conrad
12-28-2007, 12:13 PM
That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.
the guy who fixes my heating and a close family friend who is an auto mechanic both make more money than most of the cubicle jockies i know who went to college...basic college teaches you how to work for someone, not for yourself...i'm gonna use my sister's generation as an example...she graduated just over a year ago and i know many of her friends and peers...most are working jobs that have nothing to do with what they studied, low paying jobs...or are still unemployed...and most are carrying massive student loan debt...
the ignorance in this thread is astounding...
the guy who fixes my heating and a close family friend who is an auto mechanic both make more money than most of the cubicle jockies i know who went to college...basic college teaches you how to work for someone, not for yourself...i'm gonna use my sister's generation as an example...she graduated just over a year ago and i know many of her friends and peers...most are working jobs that have nothing to do with what they studied, low paying jobs...or are still unemployed...and most are carrying massive student loan debt...
Anecdotal evidence that "basic college teaches you how to work for someone, not for yourself" is not conclusive evidence. Most of the enterpreneurs I know have college degrees and then some. By the same token, most of the people I know from high school who didn't go to college work for someone else. Unless you have hard evidence of the kind that Dave R proffered showing what people with different levels of education make on average, the info above is meaningless.
The bottom line is you get out of college what you put into it. As I said earlier, going to college and doing just enough to get by and get a degree is not enough.
DJ Loka
12-28-2007, 12:53 PM
That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.
whats sad is that you with your college educated self think the guy who fixes your car or your plumbing is somehow not as smart as you.
thats the sad thing. pathetic actually.
the fact is they're differently smart. which obviously doesn't register on your meter of intellectual capacity as far as a 'commitment' goes.
and some info about entrepreneurship and it's relation to education:
http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/born.html
Are Entrepreneurs Born or Made?
<!-- Article Deck --> Two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training, according to a new survey.
By: Leslie Taylor
Published October 24, 2006
http://images.inc.com/articles/icons/icon_email.gifEMAIL THIS ARTICLE (http://www.inc.com/sendit/sendit.cgi?/news/articles/200610/born.html&title=Are+Entrepreneurs+Born+or+Made%3F)
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<!-- Body Copy --> A new survey may help resolve a debate that has raged for years among the self-made set -- whether entrepreneurs are born or made.
The verdict: born. At least that's according to the survey by Northeastern University's School of Technological Entrepreneurship.
Nearly two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired to start their own companies by their innate desire and determination, rather than by their education or work experience.
Only 1 percent of more than 200 U.S. entrepreneurs surveyed cited higher education as a significant motivator toward starting their own venture, while 61 percent cited their "innate drive." Other motivators cited were work experience (21 percent) and success of entrepreneurial peers within their industry (16 percent).
"The survey results indicate a major issue in academia today: institutions of higher education (http://www.inc.com/articles/2006/08/schools.html) are not adequately preparing students for careers in entrepreneurship," Paul Zavracky, dean of School of Technological Entrepreneurship, said in a statement.
While entrepreneurship skills can be taught, the survey results suggest that the desire to be an entrepreneur usually is not. Rather, as 42 percent of survey respondents said they launched their first venture in childhood (http://www.inc.com/lemonade/), it seems as though the enterprising spirit is discovered within the individual, not developed by the individual's experience.
Thirty-three percent of respondents launched their first venture between the ages of 18 and 30 (http://www.inc.com/30under30/); 13 percent between 30 and 40; and only 12 percent started their first business after the age of 40.
The survey also suggests that the majority of entrepreneurs were confident about the success of their first venture. Thirty-two percent said they had no fear that their venture would not succeed, while 42 percent had some fear but characterized themselves as confident. Only 14 percent said they experienced significant fear that their first venture would fail, while 12 percent said fear of failure delayed their leap into entrepreneurship.
whats sad is that you with your college educated self think the guy who fixes your car or your plumbing is somehow not as smart as you.
thats the sad thing. pathetic actually.
Umm...you need to get off that bullshit right quick and check yourself because that's not what I said. I made no comparisons between myself and the person who may not have gone to or completed college, so stop with the assumptions.
My gripe is with immediately tracking people into vocational education classes because, as some folks have indicated here, regular high school classes are "too hard" and certain people are not cut out to be "academic thinkers." If people go to alternative/vocational education classes and excel and push themselves, I think that's great. But to the extent vocational education classes become an excuse for those who are otherwise college capable "academic thinkers" not to challenge themselves, then I believe that's a bad thing. And since anecdotal evidence seems to count for hard evidence in this thread, let me offer some of my own: those kids who went to vocational school in my home town in New Jersey were always labelled "troublemakers," "bad kids," and "academic failures." And guess what? Vocational school didn't do a muthafuckin' thing to fix that.
the fact is they're differently smart. which obviously doesn't register on your meter of intellectual capacity as far as a 'commitment' goes.
I challenge you to go back to my post, read my comment, and find the support for your assertion. One thing college teaches you is critical thinking. You're displaying a lack of that here.
and some info about entrepreneurship and it's relation to education:
http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/born.html
Are Entrepreneurs Born or Made?
<!-- Article Deck --> Two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training, according to a new survey.
By: Leslie Taylor
Published October 24, 2006
http://images.inc.com/articles/icons/icon_email.gifEMAIL THIS ARTICLE (http://www.inc.com/sendit/sendit.cgi?/news/articles/200610/born.html&title=Are+Entrepreneurs+Born+or+Made%3F)
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<!-- Body Copy --> A new survey may help resolve a debate that has raged for years among the self-made set -- whether entrepreneurs are born or made.
The verdict: born. At least that's according to the survey by Northeastern University's School of Technological Entrepreneurship.
Nearly two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired to start their own companies by their innate desire and determination, rather than by their education or work experience.
Only 1 percent of more than 200 U.S. entrepreneurs surveyed cited higher education as a significant motivator toward starting their own venture, while 61 percent cited their "innate drive." Other motivators cited were work experience (21 percent) and success of entrepreneurial peers within their industry (16 percent).
"The survey results indicate a major issue in academia today: institutions of higher education (http://www.inc.com/articles/2006/08/schools.html) are not adequately preparing students for careers in entrepreneurship," Paul Zavracky, dean of School of Technological Entrepreneurship, said in a statement.
While entrepreneurship skills can be taught, the survey results suggest that the desire to be an entrepreneur usually is not. Rather, as 42 percent of survey respondents said they launched their first venture in childhood (http://www.inc.com/lemonade/), it seems as though the enterprising spirit is discovered within the individual, not developed by the individual's experience.
Thirty-three percent of respondents launched their first venture between the ages of 18 and 30 (http://www.inc.com/30under30/); 13 percent between 30 and 40; and only 12 percent started their first business after the age of 40.
The survey also suggests that the majority of entrepreneurs were confident about the success of their first venture. Thirty-two percent said they had no fear that their venture would not succeed, while 42 percent had some fear but characterized themselves as confident. Only 14 percent said they experienced significant fear that their first venture would fail, while 12 percent said fear of failure delayed their leap into entrepreneurship.
Great article. Two funny things to note about it, however: (1) The title says "[t]wo-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training." My guess is that would include the "alternative training/vocational training" you so highly tout (2) nowhere in the article did it say that two-thirds of enterpreneurs (a) didn't finish high school (b) didn't have a degree from a university.
I swear I do not understand the need for people who didn't go to or finish college to constantly put down college as a worthless endeavour. If it didn't work for you, fine.
I swear I do not understand the need for people who didn't go to or finish college to constantly put down college as a worthless endeavour. If it didn't work for you, fine.
This actually stems from a lack of understanding with respect to what college actually does for the individual. College extends beyond merely the books.
In any event, the point of this thread is getting sidetracked. The fundamental lesson here was/is to view student loans as a self investment.
Upon signing on the bottom line for the money, the onus is then upon the borrower to make sure they do good for themselves so that they can go on to pay back the money. If upon borrowing $40,000, a student then drops out without a clue on how they are going to make enough money to pay back the loan, then that's the mistake that too many make.
While we're at it, I for the life of me could never understand how students would borrow tens of thousands of dollars to obtain degrees in the humanities. Although experience has since helped me to figure out that plot. However, a BS in history does not help a student if they are not coming from one of the feeder schools for walls street internships.
Vocational vs. College, well that's a whole other discussion...
I think we could frame the turn that the discussion has taken more as a question of a formal vs. an informal education.
Peace
TAC
tac,
beg to differ my friend, a bs in history is an excellent degree
tac,
beg to differ my friend, a bs in history is an excellent degree
So, should I have said bs in basket weaving to drive home the point?
BrazenMuse
12-28-2007, 04:28 PM
mhd, we're just going to have to disagree. It's not about lowering expectations. It's about dealing with the realities facing education in America. There is nothing that says that a person who doesn't do well in high school and/or doesn't go immediately into college won't take up the challenge later. Continuing education is an absolute reality these days. From the mechanic and the plumber to the cubicle jockey, entrepreneur, teacher, doctor, lawyer...everyone who realizes that they want something more will eventually turn/return to education as a way to do something with that desire.
It IS about dealing with realities. The world is not perfect. For every parent who sits with their child and reads or helps with homework or invests time and money in tutoring, there are 10 who won't/can't. Vocational education should not be the dumping ground that it has become in America. The inspiration and motivation don't always happen in the first 21 years. The exposure to a world of possibilities for application of learned knowledge is the responsibility of public education, but we give that short-shrift by creating that false dichotomy which somehow elevates a general "college prep" curriculum over practical and applied knowledges RATHER than creating a synergy between them AND capturing the interest of those children who say, incessantly, "Why do I need to know this? who cares? I'm never going to need this or use this." Is it really ok to lose those students? I don't think so. I've taught too many college level basic skill courses to students who thought that way and dropped out but had to come back to education because they had children or because they belatedly realized what they had thrown away. There's a predatory for-profit 2yr college system out that counting on those folks, after all. That system is delivering inferior education because it's only interested in getting the financial aid money into its own pockets. And those students suffer for it. Do we need to feed that system or do we need to fix what's going on in the public school system and get our heads out of the sand about what types of education need to be available AND respected? I'd rather not feed that system.
So, call it what you will, be offended if you must. I expect excellence in my classroom, from my students and from myself. I spend hours selling the importance of a continued education to them with things like that earnings graphic so helpfully inserted earlier in this thread. I also go out of my way to look for things that connect their coursework to the real world so that they see the necessity of it. It doesn't always reach every student, certainly not immediately. But I also spent years teaching college...and saw quite a few students who ended up dropping out of college because they still didn't see the point. They had no direction, didn't find one and might not have found one until years after leaving college. That's ok.
It IS a matter of investing in self...but one has to be able to see the need for that investment. For some, that comes later ...perhaps because the scaffolding for it wasn't there early enough.
Peace.
So, should I have said bs in basket weaving to drive home the point?
lol, spoken like a true engineer, but i get your point
BrazenMuse
12-28-2007, 04:43 PM
That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.
It is sad. But those kids are real. And our system barely acknowledges their existence. Using vo-tech as a dumping ground for "problem" children in such a tech oriented world makes NO sense at all. Avoiding the use of schools with themes/career tracks makes all the sense in the world. Kids have to be exposed to things in order to develop interest in them. The current system doesn't do that enough of the time.
DJ Loka
12-28-2007, 04:43 PM
Umm...you need to get off that bullshit right quick and check yourself because that's not what I said. I made no comparisons between myself and the person who may not have gone to or completed college, so stop with the assumptions.
My gripe is with immediately tracking people into vocational education classes because, as some folks have indicated here, regular high school classes are "too hard" and certain people are not cut out to be "academic thinkers." If people go to alternative/vocational education classes and excel and push themselves, I think that's great. But to the extent vocational education classes become an excuse for those who are otherwise college capable "academic thinkers" not to challenge themselves, then I believe that's a bad thing. And since anecdotal evidence seems to count for hard evidence in this thread, let me offer some of my own: those kids who went to vocational school in my home town in New Jersey were always labelled "troublemakers," "bad kids," and "academic failures." And guess what? Vocational school didn't do a muthafuckin' thing to fix that.
I challenge you to go back to my post, read my comment, and find the support for your assertion. One thing college teaches you is critical thinking. You're displaying a lack of that here.
Great article. Two funny things to note about it, however: (1) The title says "[t]wo-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training." My guess is that would include the "alternative training/vocational training" you so highly tout (2) nowhere in the article did it say that two-thirds of enterpreneurs (a) didn't finish high school (b) didn't have a degree from a university.
I swear I do not understand the need for people who didn't go to or finish college to constantly put down college as a worthless endeavour. If it didn't work for you, fine.
critical thinking? interesting...nowhere did i say college was a worthless endeavor. i said it's not for everyone and i said some people can be just as successful, and are just as smart without it. i didn't pass judgments on anyone's intellectual capacity based on their college preference.
i just came back from getting my highlights done...my 24 year old colorist has no debt, and plans on buying property in two years. i asked her about her friends...and she said they're all in debt up to their ears and not working in their chosen profession.
then she said..."i'm so glad i went to beauty school."
i 'tout' being who you are to the best of your ability, and following whatever path puts you into a happy, prosperous, successful existence. my stance from the beginning has been that college is not for everyone. it's a simple enough concept.
'vocations' aren't to be looked down on, and certainly don't require less intelligence. and as far as critical thinking goes maybe you should evaluate your own.
critical seems to be your specialty.
i'll say it one more time, of course college is an asset, of course it is! and we all know that...but it's not the only way, and that's been my assertion from the start.
i know a guy, immigrant family, from a broken home, managed to go to top schools, now he is running for president, but he prolly woulda made a great plumber.....too
DJ Loka
12-28-2007, 05:05 PM
i know a guy, immigrant family, from a broken home, managed to go to top schools, now he is running for president, but he prolly woulda made a great plumber.....too
even our soon to be next president needs a great plumber. he doesn't look too handy and shit doesn't flush by itself. :mwink:
Leslie
12-28-2007, 05:08 PM
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even our soon to be next president needs a great plumber. he doesn't look too handy and shit doesn't flush by itself. :mwink:
Haha! Get out my head!
DaveR
12-28-2007, 05:11 PM
even our soon to be next president needs a great plumber. he doesn't look too handy and shit doesn't flush by itself. :mwink:
http://www.politosphere.com/files/Radar-politics-cover.jpg
mhd, we're just going to have to disagree. It's not about lowering expectations. It's about dealing with the realities facing education in America. There is nothing that says that a person who doesn't do well in high school and/or doesn't go immediately into college won't take up the challenge later. Continuing education is an absolute reality these days. From the mechanic and the plumber to the cubicle jockey, entrepreneur, teacher, doctor, lawyer...everyone who realizes that they want something more will eventually turn/return to education as a way to do something with that desire.
It IS about dealing with realities. The world is not perfect. For every parent who sits with their child and reads or helps with homework or invests time and money in tutoring, there are 10 who won't/can't. Vocational education should not be the dumping ground that it has become in America. The inspiration and motivation don't always happen in the first 21 years. The exposure to a world of possibilities for application of learned knowledge is the responsibility of public education, but we give that short-shrift by creating that false dichotomy which somehow elevates a general "college prep" curriculum over practical and applied knowledges RATHER than creating a synergy between them AND capturing the interest of those children who say, incessantly, "Why do I need to know this? who cares? I'm never going to need this or use this." Is it really ok to lose those students? I don't think so. I've taught too many college level basic skill courses to students who thought that way and dropped out but had to come back to education because they had children or because they belatedly realized what they had thrown away. There's a predatory for-profit 2yr college system out that counting on those folks, after all. That system is delivering inferior education because it's only interested in getting the financial aid money into its own pockets. And those students suffer for it. Do we need to feed that system or do we need to fix what's going on in the public school system and get our heads out of the sand about what types of education need to be available AND respected? I'd rather not feed that system.
So, call it what you will, be offended if you must. I expect excellence in my classroom, from my students and from myself. I spend hours selling the importance of a continued education to them with things like that earnings graphic so helpfully inserted earlier in this thread. I also go out of my way to look for things that connect their coursework to the real world so that they see the necessity of it. It doesn't always reach every student, certainly not immediately. But I also spent years teaching college...and saw quite a few students who ended up dropping out of college because they still didn't see the point. They had no direction, didn't find one and might not have found one until years after leaving college. That's ok.
It IS a matter of investing in self...but one has to be able to see the need for that investment. For some, that comes later ...perhaps because the scaffolding for it wasn't there early enough.
Peace.
clueless
critical thinking? interesting...nowhere did i say college was a worthless endeavor. i said it's not for everyone and i said some people can be just as successful, and are just as smart without it. i didn't pass judgments on anyone's intellectual capacity based on their college preference.
I didn't pass any judgments on a person's intellectual capacity based on their career preference either. I said that to the extent a person who is intellectually capable of going to college is tracked into or chooses an alternative education/vocational program because it is less intellectually challenging (read: easier), then that seems wrong. You jumped all on my case because you read that to mean that I thought those without a college education were somehow beneath me (even though I mentioned nothing about myself or my educational background relative to those without degrees). Nothing could be further from the truth. For me to believe that would mean to bite the hand that fed me since my father did not have a degree.
I'm not downing people who choose not to go to college. I'm downing the idea that alternative/vocational education is some kind of "magic bullet" that will make students better off. It is no more of a "magic bullet" than the college route if the student does not set high expectations for him or herself.
i just came back from getting my highlights done...my 24 year old colorist has no debt, and plans on buying property in two years. i asked her about her friends...and she said they're all in debt up to their ears and not working in their chosen profession.
then she said..."i'm so glad i went to beauty school."
Good for her. But again, this nothing but anecdotal evidence.
i 'tout' being who you are to the best of your ability, and following whatever path puts you into a happy, prosperous, successful existence. my stance from the beginning has been that college is not for everyone. it's a simple enough concept.
'vocations' aren't to be looked down on, and certainly don't require less intelligence. and as far as critical thinking goes maybe you should evaluate your own.
critical seems to be your specialty.
Oh please. Save the snide remarks for someone else. You really should go back and look at my first response to you in this thread. Clearly you missed it, because you wouldn't be so salty in your replies.
First, I did NOT say vocational education should be looked down upon. Nor did I say those who "choose" vocational education were less intelligent. But, as Brazen Muse has stated, vocational education often winds up being the dumping ground for kids who have been written off by the educational system. Still others choose it not because they are less intellectually capable than their peers, but because they find it easier than the traditional college curriculum. Consequently, there are groups of students in these programs that have been underestimated or that have underestimated themselves. THAT is what I am against. If you have a problem with that, so be it. And if for some reason you are still unable to understand my position, here are some select quotes you apparently glossed over:
If people go to alternative/vocational education classes and excel and push themselves, I think that's great. But to the extent vocational education classes become an excuse for those who are otherwise college capable "academic thinkers" not to challenge themselves, then I believe that's a bad thing.
I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight.
The bottom line is you get out of college what you put into it. As I said earlier, going to college and doing just enough to get by and get a degree is not enough.
i'll say it one more time, of course college is an asset, of course it is! and we all know that...but it's not the only way, and that's been my assertion from the start.
And if you read my posts carefully, I never disagreed with that assertion. I only disagree with the idea of vocational education as a panacea. The "panacea" is hard work, determination, and setting high expectations for oneself. If that is not part of person's makeup, then it doesn't matter whether they go the vocational education route or the college education route.
BrazenMuse
12-28-2007, 05:36 PM
clueless
different perspective.
peace.
Fletch
12-28-2007, 06:04 PM
I used to come out against vocational schools because I thought there was a lot of racial steering towards them. Also, many of the vocational schools at the time I went (20-25 years ago) are now obsolete and need to either be shut down or updated with the changing technology.
Now, I don't attack vocational schools like I used to. I realize that back then, those schools taught trades that were the backbone of the economy. But as I said, changes need to be made that is up to speed with today's times.
Full disclosure....I am an alum of a vocational High School. Although I made the choice to go to a vocational school myself (personally taking full responsibility for it!), I know and saw plenty of people who were steered into them! And it's still going on.
In general, children will meet whatever expectation you set for them.
BrazenMuse
12-28-2007, 06:25 PM
Doug... I agree with you here:
I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight.
The bottom line is you get out of college what you put into it. As I said earlier, going to college and doing just enough to get by and get a degree is not enough.
They do indeed require more. Broadening the scope of possibilities and exposure to the real world possibilities allows schools to capture more of the students who might otherwise slip away. It motivates the ones who need to see why they need to know certain things...
Keeping them interested is a good thing. Getting them to understand that they have to actively put something into their own development if they want what they claim to want is a key that could open more minds...
In general, children will meet whatever expectation you set for them.
thank you
BrazenMuse
12-28-2007, 07:22 PM
and, in a perfect world, that would be wonderful. Even in the best homes and the best schools, children slip through. In the world we have, our expectations and our resources are not complex enough to match the complexity of the world we live in.
and, in a perfect world, that would be wonderful. Even in the best homes and the best schools, children slip through. In the world we have, our expectations and our resources are not complex enough to match the complexity of the world we live in.
Actually, it is wonderful, in an imperfect world...If available kids will ACTUALLY gravitate to adults who set high expectations for them.
This advice goes to everyone...be very cautious of the "non-verbal" messages you send to kids...don't be "Oh Johnny you can __________ (insert expectation here)" then on the back end be thinking "well, in a perfect world..." Kids are very intuitive beings...they got high powered bullshit detectors.
This is not just directed at you Brazen, trust...I follow this advice everyday. The day I set some low expectation for a kid is the day I'll quit my practice.
Actually, it is wonderful, in an imperfect world...If available kids will ACTUALLY gravitate to adults who set high expectations for them.
This advice goes to everyone...be very cautious of the "non-verbal" messages you send to kids...don't be "Oh Johnny you can __________ (insert expectation here)" then on the back end be thinking "well, in a perfect world..." Kids are very intuitive beings...they got high powered bullshit detectors.
This is not just directed at you Brazen, trust...I follow this advice everyday. The day I set some low expectation for a kid is the day I'll quit my practice.
Thank you.
DaveR
12-28-2007, 08:47 PM
The FIRST time I flunked out of undergrad in 1985, I was coddled by University "advisors" who empathized with my situation and hardships (along with the slew of other minorities on their way out with sub 2.0 GPAs), and gave all kinds of self-assuring-bullshit feedback like:
-- The transition from HS to College is not for everyone Dave, we understand
-- Well, if you're not succeeding, perhaps college isn't for you - it's not for everyone you know, we understand
I agreed, with the above ... and merrily left, with my ego in check
__________________________________________________ ___________
The SECOND time I flunked out of undergrad in 1988, I was met with some harsh comments by my academic advisor David G. Carter (http://w3.sysoff.ctstateu.edu/web/CSUweb.nsf/NewsHTML/E511B0EB5A3EBBE3852570D9005FF17E?OpenDocument) :respent:who said, after listening to my excuses and reasons:
-- "Dave, you probably see people that are smarter than you, and dumber than you, that are graduating, and wonder why they are, and you're here flunking out again ... ... The only difference between them and you, is that they get their shit done, and you don't
__________________________________________________ ___________
The THIRD tour of duty yielded a 4.0 in my last 2 full years, sans excuses ... always remembering that swift verbal ass kicking above, by someone that didn't buy my bullshit (and gave a shit)
I hope that helps whoever is reading
DJ Loka
12-28-2007, 10:34 PM
The FIRST time I flunked out of undergrad in 1985, I was coddled by University "advisors" who empathized with my situation and hardships (along with the slew of other minorities on their way out with sub 2.0 GPAs), and gave all kinds of self-assuring-bullshit feedback like:
-- The transition from HS to College is not for everyone Dave, we understand
-- Well, if you're not succeeding, perhaps college isn't for you - it's not for everyone you know, we understand
I agreed, with the above ... and merrily left, with my ego in check
__________________________________________________ ___________
The SECOND time I flunked out of undergrad in 1988, I was met with some harsh comments by my academic advisor David G. Carter (http://w3.sysoff.ctstateu.edu/web/CSUweb.nsf/NewsHTML/E511B0EB5A3EBBE3852570D9005FF17E?OpenDocument) :respent:who said, after listening to my excuses and reasons:
-- "Dave, you probably see people that are smarter than you, and dumber than you, that are graduating, and wonder why they are, and you're here flunking out again ... ... The only difference between them and you, is that they get their shit done, and you don't
__________________________________________________ ___________
The THIRD tour of duty yielded a 4.0 in my last 2 full years, sans excuses ... always remembering that swift verbal ass kicking above, by someone that didn't buy my bullshit (and gave a shit)
I hope that helps whoever is reading
awesome story! :respent:
i was talking to one of my clients about all this tonight, she sold her company to a large internet/tech company and she now runs her company under their larger umbrella....she's in her 50's, originally from jamaica ...i asked her how she handled her education....
she took her student loan money and bought STOCKS, then paid for school with profits from her investments and had her loans paid off within 2 years.
:hail:thats some wheeling & dealing right there.
DaveR
12-28-2007, 11:48 PM
awesome story! :respent:
i was talking to one of my clients about all this tonight, she sold her company to a large internet/tech company and she now runs her company under their larger umbrella....she's in her 50's, originally from jamaica ...i asked her how she handled her education....
she took her student loan money and bought STOCKS, then paid for school with profits from her investments and had her loans paid off within 2 years.
:hail:thats some wheeling & dealing right there.
Thanks :thumbsup:
And :eek: at your client ... but ya know high-risk, high reward :respent:
Funniest/riskiest things I ever did for school was (that's right, I'm saying 'em PWW - b/c the Statute of Limitations has expired AND I made good on them both)
1) When I returned to undergrad full-time, I was broke as hell -- I quit my f/t job & because my parents made me pay $250/mo (probably the equivalent to $600-750/mo these days) to live in their house ('cause they were hella pissed I wasn't in school) -- I wrote 'questionable' checks at the start of each semester, for any amount I didn't have for tuition and books, and would pay off the tuition with DJing money when the Piper came calling a couple of months later
2) Studying for final exams (that were the next morning) WHILE DJing at 4am afterhours:rofl5:... Shit, I shoulda been sleeping, but hell if I didn't need the money ... MFers rolling into the DJ booth saying "What the hell are you doing?" ...
BrazenMuse
12-29-2007, 10:45 AM
Actually, it is wonderful, in an imperfect world...If available kids will ACTUALLY gravitate to adults who set high expectations for them.
This advice goes to everyone...be very cautious of the "non-verbal" messages you send to kids...don't be "Oh Johnny you can __________ (insert expectation here)" then on the back end be thinking "well, in a perfect world..." Kids are very intuitive beings...they got high powered bullshit detectors.
This is not just directed at you Brazen, trust...I follow this advice everyday. The day I set some low expectation for a kid is the day I'll quit my practice.
as do I darlin', as do I...and if nothing else, they walk out more aware that there are all sorts of possibilities out there...
Phyllis Hyman Cherry
12-29-2007, 11:56 AM
I'm glad i waited till later in life to get serious about education.When i went at 18 i dont think i was serious about it at all.I didnt have good time management skills which is essential in college.You have to balance work,with school and studytime.Its not going to be easy and i have already set myself up for this.But there is nothing to it but to just go ahead and do it!Four years will go by so fast.
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